Using Carrots and Sticks
Professional Leader Magazine Issues 36
Wyatt Woodsmall Interview Chapter 9
Chapter Nine examines how you can motivate and influence people more effectively by recognising that individuals respond to different incentives. Dr Wyatt Woodsmall explores carrots and sticks, approach and avoidance orientations, and McClelland’s motives of power, affiliation and achievement. The conversation introduces the six sermons and human typological analysis, showing how you can adapt your communication to different motivational patterns and apply greater flexibility when persuading, negotiating, managing and leading others.
© Nicholas Hill Academy Ltd, England, UK, 2015-2026
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In Conversation with Wyatt Woodsmall

Nicholas Christian Hill
Nicholas Christian Hill FCMI FIoL FIC Managing Director, Nicholas Hill Academy Ltd Leadership and Management Master Trainer Founding Editor, Professional Leader Magazine

Dr Wyatt Woodsmall
Certified Master Modeller Co-Creator, Advanced Behavioural Modelling Co-Founder, International NLP Trainers Association Co-Author, Time Line Therapy and the Basis of Personality
Issue 36 Chapter Guide
Issue Contents
Wyatt Woodsmall Interview Chapters
Wyatt Woodsmall Interview Chapter 9
Conversation Focus
Using Carrots and Sticks

Nicholas Christian Hill
The layperson will understand that the ‘towards’ oriented person gets motivated by the carrot, whilst the ‘away-from’ person gets motivated by the stick. This understanding is about recognising how people naturally filter risk and reward. Research in motivation shows that risk aversion is often more potent than the pull of potential gain. Leaders must present both perspectives: 1) what can be achieved if we change, and 2) the consequences of remaining as we are. Leaders sometimes hope or assume that everyone is wired like them. Leaders who understand both orientations can frame the same vision in these two different ways.

Wyatt Woodsmall
Yes, it relates very much to leadership. As you noted, the understanding of motivation has long existed. It is the science of carrots and sticks. Certain people respond to carrots, and you have to bribe them. Specific individuals react to sticks, and you must punish them. Every parent needs to know how to get their kids to clean their rooms. Not all are the same. Some of them, you have to bribe. Others, you must punish them if they do not clean their room.

Nicholas Christian Hill
Okay. May I note your comment about the need to bribe people who are ‘towards’ oriented? Because we have worked together, I know you are not referring to ‘bribe’ in the literal sense. Instead, you are applying an extrinsic incentive in this example and polarising the language. Some managers I train talk about using an ethical bribe with their team members. However, this is a misnomer. A reward is payment for expended resources, whereas a bribe is payment for unethical conduct. My definition is that a reward is receiving recompense for doing something you would not usually want to do. Accepting a bribe, by contrast, means receiving recompense for doing something you should not do. The former is perfectly acceptable as a means to get people to do what you want, whilst the latter has profound ethical implications. Referring back to my 2006 trainer training, you introduced the 4MAT model, used by teachers and trainers alike to present a concept and achieve a positive reception. I continue to use it for all training delivery and even teach in my presentation skills courses. This process begins by sharing the ‘why’ component with the audience to motivate them to listen, engage, and participate in the ongoing discussion. One technique you shared with us that I found particularly profound belongs to the ‘why’ and is what you refer to as the six sermons. Please share a brief overview of this concept, as it builds on the carrot-and-stick model.

Wyatt Woodsmall
Carrots and sticks have been around a long time, but not all carrots and sticks are the same. As a shorthand model of this, David McClelland, who is probably the leading expert in the world on motivation, says that people operate in one out of three of what he calls ‘fundamental motives’. These are power, affiliation, and achievement. As a leader, you must be able to reach people motivated by power, affiliation, or achievement.

Nicholas Christian Hill
Right. I became fascinated by his work after working with you. McClelland gives us a practical perspective on motivation. His research into Need for Achievement theory showed that people are motivated by different rewards, even when they share the same role. What matters here is that motivation is learned and reinforced over time. It is not hardwired as with personality. When leaders frame a vision around a single motive, they disengage other team members. Therefore, leaders must adapt how they present the vision. Please help us continue contextualising McClelland’s work on leadership.

Wyatt Woodsmall
There are, then, three types of leaders. The power leader is the boss. The achievement leader is the manager, whose job is to organise human, material, and capital resources to achieve a particular outcome. Then the affiliation leader is about being liked. They are from the mother hen school of leadership. In an organisation, you are going to have a mixture of all three of these people, and some of them hold ‘away-from’ and others ‘towards’ orientations. For the ‘towards’ people, you have to present either a vision of power, further achievement, or better relations. For the ‘away-from’ people, you must tell them how bad it is going to be, unless the changes occur, in which case they lose what power they have, fail miserably, or experience conflict in the organisation.

Nicholas Christian Hill
McClelland intended his theory to be used in the way you describe. His research showed the importance of recognising what motivates people in any given moment. Leaders who acknowledge the differing motivational styles of power, affiliation, and achievement consistently outperform those who rely on a single style and will see significant rewards from applying these styles in their communication. However, as with leadership styles, motivational styles are contextual, meaning leaders need to adapt their style to the situation at hand. A leader may be personally driven towards greater achievement, whereas team members may be driven by the risk of conflict or the fear of underperforming. To summarise your argument, we must deliver the vision for six types of people: those driven towards power, affiliation, or achievement, and those driven away from these. These are the six sermons you have advocated for years. Why do many leaders resist becoming this flexible?

Wyatt Woodsmall
As a leader, or as a manager, or anybody attempting to persuade an audience, you need to use the six sermons. Most people are not successful in this area because they assume others are like them. Not everybody is like you. People need to understand what my wife, Marilyne, and I call ‘human typological analysis,’ which is the science of human differences. Otherwise, you assume that everybody else is the same. If you understand where people are coming from, you can adapt your communication to engage effectively with diverse groups. That will be the key to any form of persuasion. It is the key to sales. It is the key to negotiation. It is the key to management. And it is the key to leadership.

Nicholas Christian Hill
Sure. In the workplace, we witness this phenomenon every day, and it is not as straightforward as some people might imagine. Sometimes, the boss is not the only one motivated by power. The entire sales force can be, too. You might think the human resources manager is motivated by affiliation, but that may have been the only reason for their initial job placement. Now that they witness peers moving up the ladder, their need for achievement has taken over their need for affiliation. Again, you might think that project managers have a predilection for achievement. However, following a recent bereavement, for instance, I have observed that affiliation becomes the primary motivation for that person. It is therefore vital for the managers we train to understand that all orientations are context-dependent. Furthermore, context changes with time.


